How a businessman struck a deal with Daesh to help Assad feed Syrians

A view of buildings destroyed during clashes between Syrian Democratic Forces and Daesh militants in Raqqa, Syria Sept. 30, 2017. (Reuters/Erik De Castro)
Updated 11 October 2017
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How a businessman struck a deal with Daesh to help Assad feed Syrians

RAQQA/DUBAI: While Syrian President Bashar Assad was accusing the West of turning a blind eye to Daesh smuggling, a member of his parliament was quietly doing business with the group, farmers and administrators in the militants’ former stronghold said.
The arrangement helped the Syrian government to feed areas still under its control after Daesh took over the northeastern wheat-growing region during the six-year-old civil war, they said.
Traders working for businessman and lawmaker Hossam Al-Katerji bought wheat from farmers in Daesh areas and transported it to Damascus, allowing the group to take a cut, five farmers and two administrators in Raqqa province told Reuters.
Katerji’s office manager, Mohammed Kassab, confirmed that Katerji Group was providing Syrian government territories with wheat from the northeast of Syria through Daesh territory but denied any contact with Daesh. It is not clear how much Assad knew of the wheat trading.
Cooperation over wheat between a figure from Syria’s establishment, which is backed by Shiite power Iran, and the hard-line Sunni Daesh would mark a new ironic twist in a war that has deepened regional Sunni-Shiite divisions.
Reuters contacted Katerji’s office six times to request comment but was not given access to him.
His office manager Kassab, asked how the company managed to buy and transport the wheat without any contact with Daesh, said: “It was not easy, the situation was very difficult.” When asked for details he said only that it was a long explanation. He did not return further calls or messages.
Damascus, under US and EU sanctions over the conflict and alleged oil trading with Daesh, strongly denies any business links with the hard-line Islamist militants, arguing that the United States is responsible for their rise to power.
The self-declared caliphate they set up across large parts of Syria and Iraq in 2014 has all but collapsed after Western-backed forces drove them out of their Iraqi stronghold, Mosul and surrounded them in Raqqa, where they are now confined to a small area.
Russian and Iranian-backed Syrian forces are attacking them elsewhere, such as Deir al Zor on Syria’s eastern border, where Kassab says he was speaking from, in a continuing struggle for the upper hand between world powers.

Twenty percent
Five farmers in Raqqa described how they sold wheat to Katerji’s traders during Daesh rule in interviews at the building housing the Raqqa Civil Council, formed to take over once the city is retaken.
“The operation was organized,” said Mahmoud Al-Hadi, who owns agricultural land near Raqqa and who, like the other farmers, had come to the council’s cement offices to seek help.
“I would sell to small traders who sent the wheat to big traders who sent it on to Katerji and the regime through two or three traders,” he said.
He and the other farmers said they all had to pay Daesh a 10 percent tax, or zakat, and sold all of their season’s supplies to Katerji’s traders under the multi-layered scheme.
Local officials said Katerji’s traders bought up wheat from Raqqa and Deir Ezzor and gave Daesh 20 percent.
“If a truck is carrying 100 sacks, they (Daesh) would keep 20 and give the rest to the trucker,” said Awas Ali, a deputy of the Tabqa joint leadership council, a similar, post-Daesh local body allied to the Kurdish-led forces now attacking Raqqa.
Ali said he learned of the details of the arrangement with Katerji by speaking with Daesh prisoners and others who worked in the group’s tax collection and road tolling systems.
“Katerji’s trucks were well known and the logo on them was clear and they were not harassed at all,” Ali said, adding that Katerji’s people were active during the last buying season, which lasts from May to August. The farmers also said the trucks were identifiable as Katerji’s.
The truck drivers were even allowed to smoke cigarettes as they passed through the checkpoints, something Daesh enforcers punished with whippings elsewhere, Ali and several other sources said.
“I would sell an entire season’s supplies to Katerji’s traders,” said farmer Ali Shanaan.
“They are known traders. The checkpoints stopped the trucks and Daesh would take a cut and let them pass,” he said.
The wheat was transported via the “New bridge” over the Euphrates River to a road leading out of Raqqa, the farmers and local officials said. Control of the bridge is now unclear as the militants in Raqqa come close to defeat.
Raqqa-based lawyer Abdullah Al-Aryan, who said he had been a consultant for some of Katerji’s traders, said Katerji’s trucks brought goods into Daesh territory as well as wheat out.
“Food used to come from areas controlled by the government. Medicine and food,” he said.
Daesh rule involved shooting or beheading perceived opponents in public squares, imposing its own extreme version of sharia, Islamic law, and then providing basic goods such as bread and setting up ministries and taxation.
Several farmers said they saw Daesh documents which were stamped at checkpoints to allow the wheat trucks to pass. They belonged to the department which imposes taxes.
Smuggling
Daesh may have exported some of the wheat. Local officials and farmers said the militants, as well as a rebel group, had sold the contents of grain silos in the northeast to traders across the Turkish border.
Assad has accused his enemies, including Turkey and Western countries, of supporting the group, something they deny.
In an interview in March with a Chinese news agency, published by Syrian state news agency SANA, Assad said:
“As for the other side, which is the United States, at least during the Obama administration, it dealt with Daesh through overlooking its smuggling of Syrian oil to Turkey, and in that way Daesh was able to procure money in order to recruit terrorists from all over the world.”
Asked whether Syrian companies were dealing with Daesh to secure wheat, Internal Trade and Consumer Protection Minister Abdullah Al-Gharbi said in August: “No, not at all.”
Speaking to Reuters at a Damascus trade fair, he added: “This doesn’t exist at all. We are importing wheat from Russian companies in addition to our local crop and this talk is completely unacceptable.”
The wheat buying season ended in August and Daesh has lost control of the wheat-growing areas, either to government forces or the Syrian Kurdish-led Syrian Defense Forces.

The Onassis of Syria
Assad has traditionally relied on a close-knit set of businessmen most notably Rami Makhlouf, his maternal cousin, to help keep Syria’s economy afloat.
Makhlouf is subject to international sanctions and relies on various associates to do business.
Katerji is a household name around Raqqa and elsewhere. Farmer Hadi likened him to a late Greek shipping tycoon, Aristotle Onassis. “Katerji is the Onassis of Syria,” he said.
Katerji’s facebook profile page shows him shaking hands with Assad and he regularly posts pictures of the president, who he describes as “a beacon of light for pan-Arabism, patriotism and loyalty”.
He is member of parliament for Aleppo, a key battleground recovered by the government late last year, and is part of a new business class that has risen to prominence during the war.
The United States and EU have imposed a range of measures targeted both at the government and some of the many armed groups operating in Syria, but foodstuffs are not restricted.
US and European sanctions on banking and asset freezes have, however, made it difficult for most trading houses to do business with Assad’s government and made local supplies increasingly vital.
Flat bread is a subsidized staple for Syrians, who have suffered under a conflict estimated to have killed several hundred thousand people and forced millions to flee their homes.
The government needs around 1.5 million tons annually to feed the areas it controls and keep Syrians on Assad’s side.
Syria’s bread-basket provinces of Hasaka, Raqqa and Deir Ezzor account for nearly 70 percent of total wheat production.
While the government looks set to retake much of Deir Ezzor province soon, Hasaka is mostly under the control of US-backed Syrian Kurdish YPG militia, who are also likely to hold sway in Raqqa along with Arab allied groups.
Ali, from the Tabqa council, predicted that would not stop the wheat trade. “People like Katerji, with a lot of money and power, their activities will never be completely frozen,” he said. “It is just going to disappear from one area and go to another.”


Israel may have breached EU agreement, bloc’s foreign policy arm says

Updated 6 sec ago
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Israel may have breached EU agreement, bloc’s foreign policy arm says

  • EU-Israel pact requires “respect for human rights and democratic principles” for both sides
  • EU foreign ministers are set to discuss the review during a gathering in Brussels on Monday

Palestinians try to get food at a charity kitchen providing hot meals in Rimal neighborhood in Gaza City on June 18, 2025, amid the ongoing war between Israel and the Palestinian Hamas movement. (AFP)


Mourners carry a body for burial outside al-Awda hospital in Nuseirat camp in central Gaza, on June 20, 2025, after several Palestinians were killed as they reportedly headed to a food distribution centre in the war-stricken Gaza Strip. (AFP)


Palestinians try to get food at a charity kitchen providing hot meals in Rimal neighborhood in Gaza City on June 18, 2025, amid the ongoing war between Israel and the Palestinian Hamas movement. (AFP)

Palestinians carry sacks and boxes of food and humanitarian aid that was unloaded from a World Food Program convoy that had been heading to Gaza City in the northern Gaza Strip on June 16, 2025. (AP)

 

 

BRUSSELS: The European Union’s diplomatic service said on Friday there were indications that Israel had breached its human rights obligations under the terms of a pact governing its ties with the bloc, according to a document seen by Reuters.
Citing assessments by independent international institutions, the European External Action Service said “there are indications that Israel would be in breach of its human rights obligations under Article 2 of the EU-Israel Association Agreement.”
The report comes after months of deepening concern in European capitals about Israel’s operations in Gaza and the humanitarian situation in the enclave.
“Israel’s continued restrictions to the provision of food, medicines, medical equipment, and other vital supplies affect the entire population of Gaza present on the affected territory,” the document said.

Palestinians try to get food at a charity kitchen providing hot meals in Rimal neighborhood in Gaza City on June 18, 2025, amid the ongoing war between Israel and the Palestinian Hamas movement. (AFP)

Asked about the EU review, an Israeli official called it “a one-sided report that exemplifies the double standards the EU uses toward Israel.”
Under the EU-Israel Association Agreement, which came into force in 2000, the EU and Israel agreed that their relationship “shall be based on respect for human rights and democratic principles.”
The EU’s top diplomat, Kaja Kallas, announced in May that the bloc would examine whether Israel was complying with the terms of the pact, after over half of EU members backed the conducting of a review.
The report includes a section dedicated to the situation in Gaza, covering issues related to denial of humanitarian aid, attacks with a significant number of casualties, attacks on hospitals and medical facilities, displacement, and lack of accountability.

Mourners carry a body for burial outside al-Awda hospital in Nuseirat camp in central Gaza, on June 20, 2025, after several Palestinians were killed as they reportedly headed to a food distribution centre in the war-stricken Gaza Strip. (AFP)

The report also looks at the situation in the West Bank, including settler violence.
The document relies on “facts verified by and assessments made by independent international institutions, and with a focus on most recent events in Gaza and the West Bank,” it said.
Israel has said that it respects international law and that operations in Gaza are necessary to destroy Hamas, the Palestinian group responsible for the Oct. 7, 2023, attacks on Israel.
EU foreign ministers are set to discuss the review during a gathering in Brussels on Monday. Member countries remain divided in their approach to Israel.
While some ministers could advocate for moving toward taking action based on the review, no concrete decisions are expected at Monday’s session.
Diplomats expect EU officials will reach out to Israel with the outcome of the review in an effort to influence it, and that ministers will return to the subject during a July meeting.


Morocco says 2024 ‘hottest year’ on record

Updated 50 min 25 sec ago
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Morocco says 2024 ‘hottest year’ on record

  • Moroccan climatologist Mohammed-Said Karrouk, who also heads Morocco’s National Future Planet Committee, warned that the kingdom’s geography and climate make it more vulnerable to temperature extremes

RABAT: The year 2024 was Morocco’s hottest on record, the North African country’s meteorological agency said on Friday, mirroring the record surface temperatures measured globally.
In an annual report, the agency said it recorded an average temperature anomaly of +1.49 degrees Celsius (+2.7 Fahrenheit) last year compared to the 1991-2020 period.
“The year 2024 stands out as the hottest ever recorded in Morocco,” it said, adding that every month in 2024, excluding June and September, had been hotter than the average for the 1991-2020 reference period.
Several cities broke daily heat records, with 47.6 degrees Celsius (117.7 Fahrenheit) in Marrakech and 47.7 degrees Celsius (117.8 Fahrenheit) in Beni Mellal in July last year, the agency said.
It also noted “an increase in thermal anomalies, particularly during the autumn and winter seasons.”
Morocco’s all-time heat record was set in August 2023, when temperatures hit 50.4 degrees Celsius (122 Fahrenheit) in Agadir.
The country, which is enduring a seventh straight year of drought, registered an average rainfall deficit of -24.7 percent last year, the report said.
The agency said last year’s data reflected “an amplification of climate contrasts in Morocco, where prolonged droughts alternate with episodes of extreme precipitation.”
Torrential rains in September 2024 — causing floods and killing 18 people — “did not reverse the overall rainfall deficit,” it added.
Moroccan climatologist Mohammed-Said Karrouk, who also heads Morocco’s National Future Planet Committee, warned that the kingdom’s geography and climate make it more vulnerable to temperature extremes.
He said warming was now observed in all seasons.
“In autumn, lingering summer heat combined with gradually cooling temperatures favors violent downpours, which have become more dangerous due to excess humidity in the atmosphere,” he said.
“In winter, the heat originating mostly from warming tropical oceans now influences North Africa as well.”
A former member of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Karrouk also warned of a recent intensification of the West African monsoon — a seasonal wind system that brings moist air from the Atlantic Ocean — which he linked to the deadly September floods.
He called for the construction of shelters to protect vulnerable populations and dams to capture water — a valuable resource with Morocco’s unrelenting drought.
Weather extremes have taken a toll on farming, a vital sector for Morocco which employs nearly a third of its active population and accounts for 12 percent of GDP.
Scientists say that recurring heatwaves are a clear marker of global warming and that they are set to become more frequent, longer and more intense.
Fuelled by human-driven climate change, 2024 was the warmest year on record globally — and 2025 is projected to rank among the top three.

 


Hundreds of US citizens left Iran in last week, State Dept cable says

Updated 57 min 15 sec ago
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Hundreds of US citizens left Iran in last week, State Dept cable says

  • Washington is looking at ways to potentially evacuate its citizens from Israel, but it has almost no way of assisting Americans inside Iran

WASHINGTON: Hundreds of American citizens have departed Iran using land routes over the past week since an aerial war between the Islamic Republic and Israel broke out, according to an internal State Department cable seen by Reuters on Friday.
While many left without problem, “numerous” citizens had faced “delays and harassment” while trying to exit, the cable said. It said, without giving further details, that one unidentified family had reported that two US citizens attempting to leave Iran had been detained.
The internal cable dated June 20 underscores the challenge Washington is facing in trying to protect and assist its citizens in a country with which it has no diplomatic relations and in a war in which the United States may soon get involved.
The State Department did not immediately respond to a request for comment. The cable was first reported by The Washington Post.

HIGHLIGHTS

• US advises land exits via Azerbaijan, Armenia or Turkey

• Some US citizens departing Iran faced problems, cable says

• Over 6,400 US citizens filled possible evacuation form in Israel

President Donald Trump and the White House said on Thursday he will decide in the next two weeks whether the US will get involved in the Israel-Iran war. Trump has kept the world guessing on his plans, veering from proposing a swift diplomatic solution to suggesting Washington might join the fighting on Israel’s side.
The air war began on June 13 when Israel attacked Iran and has alarmed a region that has been on edge since the start of Israel’s war in Gaza in October 2023.
Israel is the only country in the Middle East widely believed to have nuclear weapons, and said it struck Iran to prevent Tehran from developing its own nuclear weapons.
Iran, which says its nuclear program is peaceful, has retaliated with its own strikes on Israel. Iran is a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, while Israel is not.

POTENTIAL EVACUATION
The US State Department in a travel alert earlier on Friday urged its citizens wishing to depart Iran to use land routes via Azerbaijan, Armenia or Turkiye. Iranian airspace is closed.
The US Embassy in the Turkmenistan capital of Ashgabat has requested entry for over 100 American citizens, but the Turkmenistan government has yet to give its approval, the cable said.
The Islamic Republic treats Iranian-US dual citizens solely as nationals of Iran, the State Department emphasized.
“US nationals are at significant risk of questioning, arrest and detention in Iran,” the alert said.
Washington is looking at ways to potentially evacuate its citizens from Israel, but it has almost no way of assisting Americans inside Iran. The two countries have had no diplomatic ties since the Iranian Revolution in 1979.
US Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee on Thursday said the administration was looking at different ways to get US citizens out.
“We’re working to get military, commercial, charter flights and cruise ships for evac,” he said in an X post, urging US citizens and green card holders to complete an online form.
As of Friday, more than 6,400 US citizens filled out that form for Israel, a separate internal department email seen by Reuters said. The form allows the agency to predict an approximate figure for potential evacuations.
“Approximately 300-500 US citizens per day would potentially require departure assistance,” said the internal email, also dated June 20 and marked “sensitive.”
The State Department does not have official figures but thousands of US citizens are thought to be residing in Iran and hundreds of thousands in Israel.
Israel’s strikes over the last week have killed 639 people in Iran, according to the Human Rights Activists News Agency. Israel says Iranian attacks have killed 24 civilians in Israel.
“The US Department of State received no reports of US citizen casualties in Israel or Iran,” the second email said.

 


A woman tried to call her mom in Iran. A robotic voice answered the phone

This picture shows a general view of Iran's capital Tehran on June 16, 2025. (AFP)
Updated 21 June 2025
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A woman tried to call her mom in Iran. A robotic voice answered the phone

  • “Calling your mom and expecting to hear her voice and hearing an AI voice is one of the most scary things I’ve ever experienced,” she said. “I can feel it in my body”

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates: When Ellie, a British-Iranian living in the United Kingdom, tried to call her mother in Tehran, a robotic female voice answered instead.
“Alo? Alo?” the voice said, then asked in English: “Who is calling?” A few seconds passed.
“I can’t heard you,” the voice continued, its English imperfect. “Who you want to speak with? I’m Alyssia. Do you remember me? I think I don’t know who are you.”
Ellie, 44, is one of nine Iranians living abroad — including in the U.K and US — who said they have gotten strange, robotic voices when they attempted to call their loved ones in Iran since Israel launched airstrikes on the country a week ago.
They told their stories to The Associated Press on the condition they remain anonymous or that only their first names or initials be used out of fear of endangering their families.
Five experts with whom the AP shared recordings said it could be low-tech artificial intelligence, a chatbot or a pre-recorded message to which calls from abroad were diverted.
It remains unclear who is behind the operation, though four of the experts believed it was likely to be the Iranian government while the fifth saw Israel as more likely.
The messages are deeply eerie and disconcerting for Iranians in the diaspora struggling to contact their families as Israel’s offensive targeting Iranian nuclear and military sites pounds Tehran and other cities. Iran has retaliated with hundreds of missiles and drones, and the government has imposed a widespread Internet blackout it says is to protect the country.
That has blocked average Iranians from getting information from the outside world, and their relatives from being able to reach them.
“I don’t know why they’re doing this,” said Ellie, whose mother is diabetic, low on insulin and trapped on the outskirts of Tehran. She wants her mother to evacuate the city but cannot communicate that to her.
A request for comment sent to the Iranian mission to the UN was not immediately answered.
Some of the messages are bizarre
Most of the voices speak in English, though at least one spoke Farsi. If the caller tries to talk to it, the voice just continues with its message.
A 30-year-old women living in New York, who heard the same message Ellie did, called it “psychological warfare.”
“Calling your mom and expecting to hear her voice and hearing an AI voice is one of the most scary things I’ve ever experienced,” she said. “I can feel it in my body.”
And the messages can be bizarre. One woman living in the UK desperately called her mom and instead got a voice offering platitudes.
“Thank you for taking the time to listen,” it said, in a recording that she shared with the AP. “Today, I’d like to share some thoughts with you and share a few things that might resonate in our daily lives. Life is full of unexpected surprises, and these surprises can sometimes bring joy while at other times they challenge us.”
Not all Iranians abroad encounter the robotic voice. Some said when they try to call family, the phone just rings and rings.
It’s not clear who is behind this — or what the goal is
Colin Crowell, a former vice president for Twitter’s global policy, said it appeared that Iranian phone companies were diverting the calls to a default message system that does not allow calls to be completed.
Amir Rashidi, an Iranian cybersecurity expert based in the US, agreed and said the recordings appeared to be a government measure to thwart hackers, though there was no hard evidence.
He said that in the first two days of Israel’s campaign, mass voice and text messages were sent to Iranian phones urging the public to gear up for “emergency conditions.” They aimed to spread panic — similar to mass calls that government opponents made into Iran during the war with Iraq in the 1980s.
The voice messages trying to calm people “fit the pattern of the Iranian government and how in the past it handled emergency situations,” said Rashidi, the director of Texas-based Miaan, a group that reports on digital rights in the Middle East.
Mobile phones and landlines ultimately are overseen by Iran’s Ministry of Information and Communications Technology. But the country’s intelligence services have long been believed to be monitoring conversations.
“It would be hard for anybody else to hack. Of course, it is possible it is Israeli. But I don’t think they have an incentive to do this,” said Mehdi Yahyanejad, a tech entrepreneur and Internet freedom activist.
Marwa Fatafta, Berlin-based policy and advocacy director for digital rights group Access Now, suggested it could be “a form of psychological warfare by the Israelis.” She said it fits a past pattern by Israel of using extensive direct messaging to Lebanese and Palestinians during campaigns in Gaza and against Hezbollah.
The messages, she said, appear aimed at “tormenting” already anxious Iranians abroad.
When contacted with requests for comment, the Israeli military declined and the prime minister’s office did not respond.
Trying new ways to contact relatives
Ellie is one of a lucky few who found a way to reach relatives since the blackout. She knows someone who lives on the Iran-Turkiye border and has two phones — one with a Turkish SIM card and one with an Iranian SIM.
He calls Ellie’s mother with the Iranian phone — since people inside the country are still able to call one another — and presses it to the Turkish phone, where Ellie’s on the line. The two are able to speak.
“The last time we spoke to her, we told her about the AI voice that is answering all her calls,” said Ellie. “She was shocked. She said her phone hasn’t rung at all.”
Elon Musk said he has activated his satellite Internet provider Starlink in Iran, where a small number of people are believed to have the system, even though it is illegal. Authorities are urging the public to turn in neighbors with the devices as part of an ongoing spy hunt. Others have illegal satellite dishes, granting them access to international news.
The messages are making relatives feel helpless
M., a woman in the UK, has been trying to reach her mother-in-law, who is immobile and lives in Tehran’s northeast, which has been pummeled by Israeli bombardment throughout the week.
When she last spoke to her family in Iran, they were mulling whether she should evacuate from the city. Then the blackout was imposed, and they lost contact. Since then she has heard through a relative that the woman was in the ICU with respiratory problems.
When she calls, she gets the same bizarre message as the woman in the UK, a lengthy mantra.
“Close your eyes and picture yourself in a place that brings you peace and happiness,” it says. “Maybe you are walking through a serene forest, listening to the rustle of leaves and birds chirping. Or you’re by the seashore, hearing the calming sound of waves crashing on the sand.”
The only feeling the message does instill in her, she said, is “helplessness.”

 


Trump says two weeks is ‘maximum’ for Iran decision

Updated 20 June 2025
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Trump says two weeks is ‘maximum’ for Iran decision

  • Trump also played down the possibility of asking Israel to halt its attacks
  • The US president dismissed the chance of success in talks between European powers and Iran

MORRISTOWN, United States: President Donald Trump said Friday that Iran had a “maximum” of two weeks to avoid possible US air strikes, indicating he could take a decision before the fortnight deadline he set a day earlier.

Trump added that Iran “doesn’t want to talk to Europe,” dismissing the chance of success in talks between European powers and Iran in Geneva on resolving the conflict between Israel and Iran.

Trump also played down the possibility of asking Israel to halt its attacks, after Iranian Foreign Minister Abbas Araghchi said Tehran would not resume talks with the United States until Israel relented.

“I’m giving them a period of time, and I would say two weeks would be the maximum,” Trump told reporters when asked if he could decide to strike Iran before that.

He added that the aim was to “see whether or not people come to their senses.”

Trump had said in a statement on Thursday that he would “make my decision whether or not to go within the next two weeks” because there was a “substantial chance of negotiations” with Iran.

Those comments had been widely seen as opening a two-week window for negotiations to end the war between Israel and Iran, with the European powers rushing to talks with Tehran.

But his latest remarks indicated that Trump could still make his decision before that if he feels that there has been no progress toward dismantling Iran’s nuclear program.

Trump dismissed the chances of Europe making a difference, saying the talks between Britain, France, Germany and EU diplomats and Tehran’s foreign minister “didn’t help.”

“Iran doesn’t want to speak to Europe. They want to speak to us. Europe is not going to be able to help in this,” Trump told reporters as he arrived in Morristown, New Jersey.

Asked if he would ask Israel to stop its attacks as Iran had asked, Trump said it was “very hard to make that request right now.”

“If somebody’s winning, it’s a little bit harder to do than if somebody’s losing, but we’re ready, willing and able, and we’ve been speaking to Iran, and we’ll see what happens.”